Someone in that discussion (somewhere in that discussion, possibly on twitter?) suggested that men tend to be "ask" people and women tend to be "guess" people, and this lead to a theory that people with social power/privilege tend to be "ask" people (possibly because their guess is that a 'yes' will be forthcoming?), whereas folks without same tend to be "guess" people (because they're more likely to Get In Trouble if they just come out and say "I need/want X").
I think there's definitely something to this. As an example: In my power-exchange, I am (constantly) having to push myself to be an Ask Person, even though I grew up very much as a Guess Person.
However: I also think that, among peers at least, "ask" and "guess" culture is also a very classed thing that relates to the whole idea of "bootstrapping". I remember reading this thing, back in, like, 2007/2008 about cultural differences between working class people and middle class people in Brooklyn neighbourhoods, and a big one was that middle class people don't talk to their neighbours.
I grew up middle-class - both culturally and income-wise - but my adult life has been low/uncertain/limited incomes, primarily physical jobs, and poor neighbourhoods. Based on my own experience, I think there's something to this even when you get beyond the specific neighbourhood where that study took place.
I think there's this idea (that goes all the way back to the 1700s when "middle class" started becoming an identity, one that was *very* reliant on the idea that The Middle Class was neither idle-and-rich NOR lazy-and-poor, but hard-working, and therefore deserving of their success) that Middle Class People Don't Ask For Help. That calling someone up and just straight-up asking for a place to crash or the borrow a car or... whatever is rude and presumptuous and puts someone on the spot when they're not expecting to need to pony up to someone's baldly stated request for a hand-out. (I read a thing the other day about how the best way to help Poor People is to just give them money with no strings attached, and the writer of the article - someone who has money - forgets at his peril that people without money are still people with humanity and dignity and such, and I think this relates a little bit to the above).
Whereas if you are part of a culture where income levels are low and/or uncertain, asking for help isn't nearly as frowned upon. If I can get all "grand language" on you here, there's maybe an expectation of reciprocal hospitality and generocity that goes on?
I find that I, specifically, am far more likely to assume I'm getting taken advantage of or ripped off than my wife is. I am miserly in that regard, and had to do a whole bucket of personal soul-searching before I wrapped my head around the idea that maybe, just maybe, lending my neighbour four bucks at the end of the month was not a stupid idea that would result in my becoming The Font Of Free Cash for the whole building, but was instead just the right thing to do. Ghost, on the other hand, lends money and equipment out without a second thought, and it's never bitter her on the ass. Everything gets returned, and returned in good time. I grew up middle-class - hearing disparaging remarks about welfare recipients being theives, no less - and Ghost grew up working-class and, often as not, poor. And I think our behaviour around generosity is built into our respective class backgrounds.
Beyond that... Look, I've been poking at the idea of Leather (as in queer kinky community Leather) as a classed identity. Because our history/mythology site our origins as broke/n WW2 vets, working-class bikers, and socially-exiled queers who, often as not, had no support from families-of-origin and had to look to their communities for stuff as basic as food and shelter. Leather - at least the Leather Dyke community that I'm part of - is very much an Ask Culture. Part of that, of course, is because, what with all the BDSM (and polyamoury) going on, the whole business of Clear, Open, Honest Communication is kind of a major big deal in the culture. But I think it also has to do with (a) the fact that a LOT of us are broke/working-class, and also (b) our origins/origin-story. Because leatherfolk who, economically and possibly up-bringing-wise, are middle-class or have middle-class origins, are none-the-less Ask Culture people. They have that reciprocal hospitality and generocity thing going on. They are people who will put the word in our ear about "so and so needs a ride to Montreal, can you give them one" or who will call us and say "Can we crash at your place on our way to Toronto". They are people who will call on people in their community to get help for other people in their community. They are people who will show up on our doorstep needing a meal and a good cry. They are people who will show up on our doorstep with a meal and a good shoulder, who will lend us their cars and open their homes to us if we ask.
So there's that. It's not big organization stuff, exactly. But it's something to look at.
As for civil servant culture... I've only ever worked in the civil service on a contract basis. So my experience is probably going be quite different from what someone more permanently involved will have seen/been/done.
I know people who grew up so deep in Guess Culture that they think hint-dropping is the "polite" way to make a request rather than the "obnoxious" way to do it, and their reaction to people at work who straight-up ask is to be furious and feel really put-upon and to see the asker as being lazy and demanding. I know people (and I'm one of them, I suspect) who are okay with asking to help others - "Have you got anything you need help with?" - in the office, but who are loathe to ask for help when they're overwhelmed. This might be a class thing, too. Asking to help means you're a team-player and you value/respect Company Time. Asking for help means you're inefficient or otherwise not very good at your job. I wonder how much this has to do, also, with one's position on the totem pole. As a temp, I ask for direction a lot, because I know I'm learning how everything works in Place X, and because I know I've got a damn steep learning curve during the first 3-5 days of my contract. But, because I also know the contract will eventually not get renewed, I don't much care whether they think I'm too "asky" or not. Someone who'd just got accepted in a permanent position, on the other hand, might feel differently, might feel like they have to live up to some (real or perceived) workplace culture and be already-competent at their jobs and may be very nervous about coming right out and asking for things (for direction, for information, for help, for whatever) if they're not sure what is and is not appropriate for their position in this particular workplace.
Which I think kind of brings me back to what I said about power exchanges very early on in this response, which is: The more power you have, the more ASK you have/get to be.
The more Ask you get to be, because the people below you will probably give you what you want purely because you're their boss, but also the more Ask you have to be (oh recently-promoted one) because you are officially in charge of other people's time and energy and, well, hinting that you want Task X to be done by Person Y is just... that is not an effective use of resources, and it'll leave your employees floundering. (Perhaps I should take my own advice...)
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2014-01-09 05:31 pm (UTC)I think there's definitely something to this.
As an example: In my power-exchange, I am (constantly) having to push myself to be an Ask Person, even though I grew up very much as a Guess Person.
However: I also think that, among peers at least, "ask" and "guess" culture is also a very classed thing that relates to the whole idea of "bootstrapping".
I remember reading this thing, back in, like, 2007/2008 about cultural differences between working class people and middle class people in Brooklyn neighbourhoods, and a big one was that middle class people don't talk to their neighbours.
I grew up middle-class - both culturally and income-wise - but my adult life has been low/uncertain/limited incomes, primarily physical jobs, and poor neighbourhoods. Based on my own experience, I think there's something to this even when you get beyond the specific neighbourhood where that study took place.
I think there's this idea (that goes all the way back to the 1700s when "middle class" started becoming an identity, one that was *very* reliant on the idea that The Middle Class was neither idle-and-rich NOR lazy-and-poor, but hard-working, and therefore deserving of their success) that Middle Class People Don't Ask For Help. That calling someone up and just straight-up asking for a place to crash or the borrow a car or... whatever is rude and presumptuous and puts someone on the spot when they're not expecting to need to pony up to someone's baldly stated request for a hand-out.
(I read a thing the other day about how the best way to help Poor People is to just give them money with no strings attached, and the writer of the article - someone who has money - forgets at his peril that people without money are still people with humanity and dignity and such, and I think this relates a little bit to the above).
Whereas if you are part of a culture where income levels are low and/or uncertain, asking for help isn't nearly as frowned upon. If I can get all "grand language" on you here, there's maybe an expectation of reciprocal hospitality and generocity that goes on?
I find that I, specifically, am far more likely to assume I'm getting taken advantage of or ripped off than my wife is. I am miserly in that regard, and had to do a whole bucket of personal soul-searching before I wrapped my head around the idea that maybe, just maybe, lending my neighbour four bucks at the end of the month was not a stupid idea that would result in my becoming The Font Of Free Cash for the whole building, but was instead just the right thing to do.
Ghost, on the other hand, lends money and equipment out without a second thought, and it's never bitter her on the ass. Everything gets returned, and returned in good time.
I grew up middle-class - hearing disparaging remarks about welfare recipients being theives, no less - and Ghost grew up working-class and, often as not, poor. And I think our behaviour around generosity is built into our respective class backgrounds.
Beyond that...
Look, I've been poking at the idea of Leather (as in queer kinky community Leather) as a classed identity. Because our history/mythology site our origins as broke/n WW2 vets, working-class bikers, and socially-exiled queers who, often as not, had no support from families-of-origin and had to look to their communities for stuff as basic as food and shelter.
Leather - at least the Leather Dyke community that I'm part of - is very much an Ask Culture. Part of that, of course, is because, what with all the BDSM (and polyamoury) going on, the whole business of Clear, Open, Honest Communication is kind of a major big deal in the culture. But I think it also has to do with (a) the fact that a LOT of us are broke/working-class, and also (b) our origins/origin-story.
Because leatherfolk who, economically and possibly up-bringing-wise, are middle-class or have middle-class origins, are none-the-less Ask Culture people. They have that reciprocal hospitality and generocity thing going on. They are people who will put the word in our ear about "so and so needs a ride to Montreal, can you give them one" or who will call us and say "Can we crash at your place on our way to Toronto". They are people who will call on people in their community to get help for other people in their community. They are people who will show up on our doorstep needing a meal and a good cry. They are people who will show up on our doorstep with a meal and a good shoulder, who will lend us their cars and open their homes to us if we ask.
So there's that. It's not big organization stuff, exactly. But it's something to look at.
As for civil servant culture... I've only ever worked in the civil service on a contract basis. So my experience is probably going be quite different from what someone more permanently involved will have seen/been/done.
I know people who grew up so deep in Guess Culture that they think hint-dropping is the "polite" way to make a request rather than the "obnoxious" way to do it, and their reaction to people at work who straight-up ask is to be furious and feel really put-upon and to see the asker as being lazy and demanding. I know people (and I'm one of them, I suspect) who are okay with asking to help others - "Have you got anything you need help with?" - in the office, but who are loathe to ask for help when they're overwhelmed. This might be a class thing, too. Asking to help means you're a team-player and you value/respect Company Time. Asking for help means you're inefficient or otherwise not very good at your job. I wonder how much this has to do, also, with one's position on the totem pole.
As a temp, I ask for direction a lot, because I know I'm learning how everything works in Place X, and because I know I've got a damn steep learning curve during the first 3-5 days of my contract. But, because I also know the contract will eventually not get renewed, I don't much care whether they think I'm too "asky" or not. Someone who'd just got accepted in a permanent position, on the other hand, might feel differently, might feel like they have to live up to some (real or perceived) workplace culture and be already-competent at their jobs and may be very nervous about coming right out and asking for things (for direction, for information, for help, for whatever) if they're not sure what is and is not appropriate for their position in this particular workplace.
Which I think kind of brings me back to what I said about power exchanges very early on in this response, which is: The more power you have, the more ASK you have/get to be.
The more Ask you get to be, because the people below you will probably give you what you want purely because you're their boss, but also the more Ask you have to be (oh recently-promoted one) because you are officially in charge of other people's time and energy and, well, hinting that you want Task X to be done by Person Y is just... that is not an effective use of resources, and it'll leave your employees floundering. (Perhaps I should take my own advice...)
Anyway. That's my thoughts on that one. :-)
TTFN,
Amazon. :-)